The bells of the Etchmiadzn were silent.

Five years ago, on September 27. 2020, Azerbaijan launched a large-scale blitzkrieg attack on Armenia supported Artskah, marking the start of the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War. The bells of Etchmiadzin remained silent throughout the conflict to this day. Simply said, Baruyr Sevag’s “Un-silence-able Belfry” (Անլռելի Զանգակատուն), have been silent under Catholicos Karekin II, when the nation needed it most. I am not speaking figuratively but in actuality. To make my point I cite the following events, during the last five years, where the bells of Etchmiadzin should have rung in moral support of the Armenian state waging an existential battle. 

The bells of the Etchmiadzn were silent on October 29, 2020.

Four weeks into the war, on October 29, 2020, Artsakh President Arayik Harutyunyan addressed the nation from the Ghazanchetsots Church in Shushi, declaring that Shushi, the "beating heart of all Armenians" is waging an existential battle.  In his address, he emphasized that, the enemy's main goal was to occupy Shushi. Loosing Shushi meant loosing Artsakh. The fact that the address was delivered from  the Ghazanchetsots Church, made it evident that the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War had entered a very critical phase. 

The bells of Etchmiadzin remained silent,

The bells of the Etchmiadzn were silent on June 3, 2023

On June 3, 2023, the PM of Armenia flew to Ankara to attend the celebration of Erdogan’s election. When I saw his picture of the PM in the enemy’s den, I could not bring myself to remain indeferent, and posted  on my Facebook page, “May God help the Prime Minister of Armenia Nikol Pashinyan and give me him fortitude, courage in pain and in adversity, as he deals with powerful, arrogant, SOBs. Asdouatz hedt varchabed - Աստուած հետդ վարչապետ”.

But the bells of Etchmiadzin remained silent

The bells of the Etchmiadzn were silent on June 20, 2025

On June 20, 2025, the PM of Armenia paid an official visit to Türkiye at the official invitation of the president Erdogan. I expected if not only the bells of the Armenian Church ring, but surely the church would render prayer services for a safe trip and successful conclusion of that historic meeting.

But the bells of Etchmiazin remained silent.

Etchmiadzin did not offer prayer service either 

The Bells of Etchmiadzin rang against the Armenian State.

But I would like to note the following exception. The bells of Etchmiadzin did ring under Catholicos Karekin II, but AGAINST the Armenian state

On June 27, 2025, Etchmiadzin, surely at the request of Catholicos Karekin II, Etchmiadzin rang its bells against the State of Armenia. It happened, when masked officers from National Security Service (NSS) of Armenia gathered at the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin to detain Archbishop Mikael Achabahian, who is the Primate of the Shirak Diocese of the Church of Armenia. The Archbishop surrendered to the authorities without incident. 

                                                   ***

 Armenia declared independence on September 21, 1991. We have been running our own state for the past 34 years, 2 months, and 9 days, to this day. It is expected that a new state such as ours, will have its trials and tribulations that we need to overcome.

 Catholicos Karekin II not only does not have the temperament, the character, to have the Armenian Apostolic Church toil hand in hand with the Armenian State, the Catholicos in fact hinders the founding for posterity  a secure,  free, independent, and a democratic republic for Armenians. I find him an anomaly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Etchmiadzin hierarchy breached the constitution.

Vaհe H Apelian 

Much has been said about the turmoil between the State of Armenia and the Armenian Apostolic Church. We all know by now that the chasm transcends the principal individuals. Although naturally, the prime minister Nikol Pashinyan and his government, and Catholicos Karekin II and his clerical administration play decisive roles in the matter, which, more than anything else, is a breach of Armenia’s constitution.

The latest amended constitution of Armenia in 2015, which ushered the country from presidential to parliamentary form of governance, specify that the “religious organizations shall be separate from the State.” That provision is specified in the Article 17 and it reads as follows:

Article 17. The State and Religious Organizations

1. The freedom of activities of religious organizations shall be guaranteed in the Republic of Armenia.

2. Religious organizations shall be separate from the State.

The constitution also recognizes the special status of the Armenian Apostolic Church and calls it a holy church and a national church. The constitution places on the Armenian Apostolic Holy Church an extraordinary trust for the preservation of national Armenian identity. Those provisions are spelled out in Article 18 of the Armenian Constitution which reads as follows:

Article 18. The Armenian Apostolic Holy Church

1. The Republic of Armenia shall recognize the exclusive mission of the Armenian Apostolic Holy Church, as a national church, in the spiritual life of the Armenian people, in the development of their national culture and preservation of their national identity.

2. The relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Armenian Apostolic Holy Church may be regulated by law.

A serious breach has come about between the State and the Church relations as prescribed in the Armenian Constitution. Who brought about that breach of the constitutional contract? Was it the church? Or was it the State? I am sure each has its own opinion. 

As far as I am concerned, it was the Etchmiadzin church hierarchy that breached its constitutional contract. It started with Catholicos Karekin II. After Armenia was defeated and capitulated in the disastrous second Artsakh war, or the catastrophic 44-Day War, Catholicos called for the resignation of the prime minister Nikol Pashinyan, whom the citizens of Armenia had elected in December 2019.  The prime minister resigned but remained a candidate, The citizens of Armenia reelected him in June 2021 general election. The catholicos did not rescind his call for the PM’s resignation, even after December 2021 general election in which the citizens of Armenia, with an overwhelming majority (54%),  voted for Nikol Pashinyan over its combined opposition forces that hardly mustered half of the winning party’s votes. On the contrary. Catholicos Karekin II qualified his call pontifical – Hayrabedagan. That is to say open ended and remains in force until the PM’s resignation is brought about. Not only the Catholicos did not rescind his call, he gave approval to his high-ranking church officials, Archbishops Achabahyan and Galstanyan, to wage an outright insurrection against the democratically elected government calling it a holy struggle, Srpazan Baykar,– Սրբազան Պայքար. Archbishop Galstanyan in turn, during the insurection, gave a two day ultimatum to the PM Nikol Pashinyan to resign, under the force of his holy strife.  But that is a breach of the constitution.

 It is also becoming evident that an endemic corruption has taken hold in the Etchmiadzin hierarchy. It does not surprise me. An institution, be it a church, that disregards established order and takes matters into its own hand,  is bound for corruption. 

But I look at it in this context as well. After the fall of the Armenian Cilician Kingdom in 1375, Armenia declared independence on September 21, 1991. We have been running our own state for the past 34 years, 2 months, and 7 days, to this day. It is expected that a new state such as ours, will have its trials and tribulations that we need to overcome. I am confident that we will. The collective wisdom of the citizens of Armenia will see that the constitution is observed, as long as the democratic process is maintained. 

 The Armenian Apostolic Holy Church in Armenia, may follow the esamples of its two progenies, the Armenian Catholic Church and the Armenian Evangelical Church that, in relation to their demographies, render inordinately much service to the Armenian nation  and stand by the government the people of Armenia have elected.

we also should also refrain from a false narrative that is being postulated and circulated.

That false narrative is an out of context narrative that goes this way. I quote from Horizon weekly, “At a moment when Armenia is still reeling from historic losses, forced concessions, and a humiliating erosion of state sovereignty, the government of Nikol Pashinyan is intensifying its attack on the one national institution that has carried the Armenian nation through statelessness, genocide, dispersion, and exile.” 

 It is a false narrative because sovereignty of a state cannot be upheld without observing the principles, the law and order spelled out in its constitution. At his moment, Armenian statehood is threatened no less, if not more, from internal hegemony, than external. 

And finally, what of an Armenian state, if it does not uphold the principles of democratic order it prophesies and does not observe  its constitution?

When the Catholicos votes

Vaհe  H Apelian

I was surprised to read that the Catholicos of All Armenians Karekin II voted in the Vagharshabad city’s municipal election. I spent almost the first three decades of my life in Lebanon and I know that the Catholicos of Cilician See and its bishops did not vote in the Lebanese elections. The one-time historic Seat in Sis in Turkey is now in the city of Antelias, in Lebanon. There is a lot to write about Cilician See Catholicosate’s bishops participation, in the Lebanese elections. Or for that matter the Cilician See participating in the secular elections of their host countries, such as in Syria. But that is altogether a different matter.

The picture of Catholicos of All Armenians Karekin II voting in the Vagharshabad city’s election is a momentous depiction, as far as I am concerned.

Vagharshapat is the fourth-largest city in Armenia. It is where the religious center of the Armenian Apostolic Church, we know as Etchmiadzin is located. Vagharshapat/Vagharshabad is an ancient city and was the capital of Armenia at one time in our ancient history. The city is named after the king who founded it.

The picture I posted above is from Panorama.am online journal.The caption reads as follows: “His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians, voted in the Vagharshapat municipal elections on Sunday morning. He was accompanied by Archbishop Arshak Khachatryan and other clergymen at polling station 14/46. After casting his ballot, Karekin II said they had “voted with prayer”, expressing hope that the elections would proceed fairly and that Vagharshapat would “prosper and flourish”, bringing a better and more secure future for its residents.”

Given the constitutional provision of separation of State and the Church in Armenia, I was left with the impression that the Catholicos of All Armenians seating in Etchmiadzin, does not take part in secular political elections, and does not cast his vote. Hence the bishops and the ecclesiastical fathers of the Apostolic Church do the same. They do not take part in the political process.  But obviously I was wrong; which raises in my mind the nagging question. What does constitutional state and church separation mean if the Cathollicos of All Armenians and its bishops are constitutionally allowed to take part in election? Or for that matter, if the Catholicos and the ecclesiastical fathers of the Armenian Apostolic Church, out of their free will and conviction, do not take part in elections in observance of Armenia's constitution. 

Politics by its nature is not All Armenian. It is partisan Armenian, contrary to what the Armenian Apostolic Church proclaims  it is.

Negotiation and compromise, or negotiating and compromising, are viewed as the hallmarks of any political process. In fact, the ability to compromise through negotiation is viewed as positive and progressive in any political process, to achieve unity and to resolve dispute.

But the Armenian Apostolic Church compromising on matters of Christian faith or on matters of Christian biblical standards is all together a different matter. 

Therein is the wisdom of separating the Armenian Church and the Armenian State. Apparently, that is not the case in Armenia, even though it is spelled in its constitution. In fact, the Catholicos Karekin II attested by his participation in the political process in the city, where he resides, that the separation of the state and the church  provision in the Armenia’s constitution, has no relevance to him.  Wording it harshly, he makes a mockery of the Constitution the citizens of Armenia have adopted to govern themselves.

The Armenian people cannot and should not allow the Armenian Apostolic Church in Armenia be part of the political process, if Armenians want to uphold the All-Armenian Apostolic Church they proclaim it is and is  Holy and its head is His Holiness.

 

 

 

Marlene and the Armenian cobbler

Բնագիրը կցուած է ներքեւը։ IN MEMORY OF VAHE AND LIZE AMIRIAN (see the note below). Perhaps readers of Ara’s moving story I translated with the aid of AI, will relate to it, understand it and appreciate the story if they are Ara’s and my age. The incident in the Armenian cobbler’s shop happened in 1971. I came to the U.S. in 1976. It was a different Armenian world then. I used to rent a room with an Armenian family in Paramus, New Jersey, Mr. and Mrs. Sahagian. After Marie and I got married the following year, we moved to an apartment in Clifton, NJ. Shortly after we moved, Mrs. Liz Amirian and two other Armenian ladies from the local Armenian Relief Society, visited us to welcome us. They had heard of our move there. During those years, Marie and I would go out of our way just to befriend an Armenian, simply because the person was an Armenian. Regretfully, I lost that innocence. Once I told our younger son, barely out of his teens, that I remained friends with my friends, even though we barely communicated with each other, while he and his friends seem to have transient friendship. His response went well beyond his years. He said, “Dad, you barely communicated and thus retained the best impressions of each other, but we know other.” I wish I had not lost that innocence and trust Marlene had and I harbored in those years. But, the sad fact of the matter is that I have. Vaհe H Apelian.

Marlene was my college classmate in the seventies. She was the daughter of a distinguished Armenian family living in a city near Chicago, considered one of the greatest centers of ironmaking in America. She had come to Racine, our city, to continue her higher education at the college that was the namesake of the sisters of the Dominican religious order, who had founded it -  Dominican College of Racine. Marlene was one grade higher, but we both attended some courses as classnates, such as philosophy.  A close friendly relationship had blossomed between us.

One week, after the New Year’s holiday in 1971, Marlene and a couple of her friends were sitting in the school cafeteria eating lunch when Marlene asked me if I could take her to a cobbler to have her shoes repaired. The inside of her shoes were worn out and she had placed thick layers of cardboard to protect her soles. Like many of other students, Marlene didn’t have a car and relied on the kindness of friends. We finished our lunch and headed to a thrift store.

The snowstorm had reduced visibility to the point that I could barely see the front of my car. I had seen two cobbler shops in Racine. There were probably others, but I was still almost a newcomer, and didn’t know where the rest were. One of the cobblers I knew was an Afro-American, the other was an Armenian. As Americans say, it’s no brainer, where I drove her. Ten minutes later we got out of the car and entered the shoe repair shop, the Armenian owned. The cobbler had migrated from the Middle East a few years earlier. Six months earlier, he had bought the store, complete with all the supplies and equipment for repairing shoes, from another cobbler who had retired.

I had met him at Armenian gatherings, so there was no need to introduce myself. After customary greeting and asking each other’s well-being, I introduced Marlene to the Armenian shoemaker, telling him that she was my classmate and that she was an Armenian, and that we had come to have her shoes repaired. The shoemaker’s response was abrupt: “So, what? Because she is an Armenian, do you expect me to have her shoes repaired for free?” What could I say to this course and rude man? I looked at his face, hoping to catch a faint trace of a smile that might indicate what he was saying was a joke. Instead, I saw the embodiment of seriousness there. He wasn’t joking. This man truly believed that all his compatriots were trying to rip him off of the sweat of his labor. Perhaps there were those who had expectations for discounts, but I’m sure, not to rip him off. 

“Shame on you! Shame on you for being Armenian!” I said, “we didn’t come to beg for mercy from you”. Instead of answering, he said, “I’ll repair each one for four dollars, provided you pay in cash.” A dollar in 1970-71 was worth more than eight dollars in today’s money. So, in today’s terms, the repair of the shoes would have cost Marlene sixty-five dollars. I don’t know if he demanded such a large sum hoping that we would leave and go, or if he was simply ignorant of the rudimentary courtesy needed  to run his business. Less than a year after that incident,  he closed the store. I left that pitiful man’s request unanswered. I turned to Marlene and said, “Let’s go.”

When we left the store, Marlene, who understood very little Armenian, wanted to know what transpired inside. I told her what the Armenian scoundrel had said. She remained silent for a few minutes. It was as if she was trying to process in her mind the indecent treatment of that Armenian scoundrel. She did not know Armenian, but Marlene was proud for being Armenian. She had heard from her father about the genocide, about their relatives living in Armenia, and a little about Armenian history. But the greatest reason for her to be an Armenian was her expected decency of the Armenians,  her father had impressed upon her mind and soul from an early age. In the town where her family lived, there were barely a handful of Armenians, so Marlene lacked personal experience that would validate to her, the expected decency of Armenians, with which her parents had raised her. It must have never occurred to her that such a rude and indecent Armenian as this scoundrel existed in the world, because I noticed that her eyes filled with tears and she began to sob. 

She sat in the car, sobbing and shaking her head from side to side. She could not believe that the assurances she had received from her father, whom she adored, about the decency of Armenians could be wrong. I waited for her to calm down, then I drove to the workplace of the Afro-American cobbler.

Marlene wiped her eyes, turned to me and said in English, “I would have never believed that such an Armenian existed.” She went on repeating herself, “I would never have believed that such an Armenian existed.”

Ara Mkhsian

***

Note: Mr. and Mrs. Vahe and Elizabeth Amirian were very active in the St. Vartanants Armenian Apostolic Church community in NJ. They vouched for my American citizenship. After I took my citizenship oath, they invited Marie and I for lunch at a local restaurant, telling me that it is customary that those who vouch for U.S. citizenship to invite the new U.S. Citizen to lunch. 

 

 

 

Մառլինը եւ հայ հնակարկատը

Եօթանասունական թուականներուն համալսարանի դասընկերս էր Մառլինը։ Շիքակոյի մօտակայքը գտնուող՝ Ամերիկայի մէջ երկաթագործութեան մեծագոյն կեդրոններէն մէկը համարուող քաղաքին մէջ բնակող ազնուական հայ ընտանիքի մը նոյնքան ազնուական դուստրն էր Մառլին։ Եկեր էր Ռէյսին՝ մեր քաղաքը՝ բարձրագոյն ուսումը շարունակելու՝ Տոմինիքըն կրօնական կարգին պատկանող ժրաջան քոյրերու անձանձիր ջանքերով հիմնուած՝ համանուն համալսարանէն ներս։ Ինձմէ մէկ դասարան բարձր էր Մառլին, բայց երկուքս ալ իմաստասիրութեան նիւթի աշակերտներ էինք եւ այդ միջոցով շատ սերտ, սակայն սոսկ պղատոնական ընկերութիւն մը ծաղկեցաւ մեր միջեւ։       

Հազար ինը հարիւր Եօթանասունմէկի ամանորի արձակուրդէն շաբաթ մը վերջ, Մառլինին եւ մէկ երկու դասընկերներու հետ դպրոցի ճաշասենեակը նստած կը ճաշէինք, երբ Մառլինը ինծի հարցուց, թէ արդե՞ք կրնայի զինք հնակարկատի խանութ մը տանիլ․ կօշիկներուն  ներբանը մաշեր էր եւ ինք մէջը խաւաքարտի հաստ շերտեր խոթեր էր ոտքերը ձիւնէն պատսպարելու համար։ Շատ մը աշակերտներու պէս Մառլինն ալ ինքնաշարժ չունէր եւ ունեցող ընկերներու բարեացակամութեան կ՚ապաւինէր տեղ մը երթալու համար։ Ճաշը աւարտեցինք եւ ճամբայ ելանք դէպի հնակարկատի խանութ։ 

Ձիւնամրրիկը տեսադաշտս այնքան կրճատեր էր որ հազիւ կրնայի ինքնաշարժիս առաջամասը տեսնել։ Հնակարկատի երկու խանութ տեսեր էի Ռէյսինի մէջ։ Հաւանաբար ուրիշներ ալ կային, բայց տակաւին գրեթէ նորեկ ըլլալուս՝ մնացեալներուն տեղը չէի գիտեր։ Գիտցածներէս մէկը սեւամորթ ամերիկացի մըն էր, միւսը՝ հայ մը։ Ինչպէս ամերիկացիները կ՚ըսեն՝ it՚s a no brainer, այսինքն միտք չարչարելու պէտք չկար․ տասը վայրկեան ետք ինքնաշարժէն դուրս ելանք եւ մտանք հայ հնակարկատին խանութը։ Միջին արեւելքէն մի քանի տարի առաջ Ամերիկա գաղթեր էր հայ հնակարկատը։ Վեց ամիս առաջ՝ հանգստեան կոչուած հնակարկատէ մը գներ էր այս խանութը՝ կօշիկ նորոգելու ամբողջ պիտոյքներով եւ սարքաւորումով։  

Հաւաքոյթներու մէջ հանդիպէր էի իրեն, հետեւաբար ինքզինքս ծանօթացնելու հարկ չկար։ Բարեւելէ եւ որպիսութիւնը հարցնելէ ետք Մառլինը ծանօթացուցի հայ հնակարկատին եւ ըսի որ դասընկերս է եւ հայ է, եկեր է  կօշիկները նորոգել տալու։ Հնակարկատին պատասխանը եղաւ հետեւեալը․ «ի՞նչ է, հայ է ըսելով, կը կարծես թէ ձրի կը նորոգեմ»։ Ի՞նչ կրնայի ըսել այս կոշ ու կոպիտ մարդուն։ Նայեցայ երեսին, յուսալով հոն նշմարել ժպիտի դոյզն հետք մը, որ կրնար իր ըսածին կատակ ըլլալը մատնել, բայց հոն տեսայ լրջութեան մարմնացումը։ Կատակ չէր ըրածը։ Այս մարդը իսկապէս կը հաւատար որ իր բոլոր ազգակիցները անխտիր կը փորձէին անվճար օգտուիլ իր ճակտի քրտինքի արգասիքէն։ Թերեւս նման ակնկալութիւն ունեցողներ կային, բայց վստահ եմ՝ իր հայ յաճախորդներուն չնչին մէկ տոկոսը կը կազմէին նմանները։ 

«Ամօթ քեզի, մեղք որ հայ ես․ քեզմէ ողորմութիւն հայցելու չեկանք» ըսի։ Փոխանակ պատասխանելու՝ «ամէն մէկը չորս տոլարի կը նորոգեմ, պայմանաւ որ կանխիկ վճարէք» ըսաւ։ 1970-71 շրջանի մէկ տոլարը այսօրուան ութ տոլարէն աւելի կ՚արժէր։  Ուրեմն այսօրուան հաշուով վաթսունհինգ տոլարի պիտի նայէր կօշիկներուն նորոգումը։ Չեմ գիտեր, թէ այդքան խոշոր եւ կանխիկ հատուցում պահանջեց յուսալով որ կը ձգենք կ՚երթանք, թէ՝ առեւտուրի օրէնքներուն անտեղեակ էր պարզապէս, սակայն այդ պատահարէն տարի մը չանցած՝ խանութը գոցուեցաւ։ Այդ խղճալի մարդուն վերջին առաջադրանքը անպատասխան ձգեցի, դարձայ Մառլինին եւ ըսի «երթանք»։

Երբ խանութէն դուրս ելեր էինք, Մառլին՝ որ հայերէն շատ քիչ կը հասկնար ուզեց գիտնալ թէ ի՞նչ պատահեցաւ ներսը։ Իրեն յայտնեցի հայ հնակարկատին ըսածները։ Քանի մը րոպէ լուռ մնաց․ կարծես թէ կը փորձէր իր մտքին մէջ յարմար տեղ մը գտնել այդ հայ հնակարկատին անպարկեշտ վերաբերումին համար։ Հայերէն չէր գիտեր, բայց հայութեամբ հպարտ էր Մառլին։ Իր հօրմէն լսած էր ցեղասպանութեան մասին, հայաստան բնակող ազգականներու մասին, քիչ մըն ալ հայոց պատմութեան մասին։ Բայց հայ ըլլալու հպարտութեան տուն տուող պատճառներէն մեծագոյնը հայ մարդուն պարկեշտութիւնն էր, որ պզտիկուց իր մտքին եւ հոգիին վրայ դրոշմեր էր հայրը։ Իր ընտանիքին ապրած քաղաքին մէջ հազիւ մէկ ձեռքի մատներու թիւով հայեր կ՚ապրէին, հետեւաբար՝ հայուն պարկեշտութիւնը վաւերացնող անձնական փորձառութիւնը կը պակսէր Մառլինին։ Կ՚երեւի միտքէն իսկ չէր անցուցած թէ այս հնակարկատին նման կոպիտ ու անպարկեշտ հայ գոյութիւն ունի աշխարհի վրայ, որովհետեւ նկատեցի որ աչքերը լեցուեցան եւ սկսաւ հեկեկալ։ Ինքնաշարժին մէջ նստած կու լար եւ գլուխը մէկ կողմէն միւսը կը շարժէր․ չէր կրնար հաւատալ, որ  հայուն պարկեշտութեան մասին իր պաշտած հօրմէն ստացած հաւաստիացումները սխալ կրնային ըլլալ։ Սպասեցի որ հանդարտի, ապա ինքնաշարժը վարեցի դէպի սեւամորթ ամերիկացի հնակարկատին գործատեղին։ 

Մառլին աչքերը սրբեց, դարձաւ ինծի եւ ըսաւ անգլերէնով՝ «I would have never believed that such an Armenian existed»․ «երբեք պիտի չհաւատայի որ նման հայ մը գոյութիւն ունի»։

Արա Մխսեան

Ramgavar Party's call for awareness

ԲՆԱԳԻՐԸ ԿՑՈՒԱԾ Է ՆԵՐՔԵՒԸ -Attached is my AI aided translation of The Armenian Democratic Liberal Party (Armenian: Ռամկավար Ազատական Կուսակցութիւն, romanized: Ramgavar Azadagan Gusagtsutyun; ՌԱԿ / ADL), often called the Ramgavar Party’s call for awareness regarding Armenia Church and State relations. I copied the call from Kaydzag on line journal.  Vaհe H Apelian

 

The Statement.

The tense and unpleasant current situation in Armenia, which began with the confrontation between the authorities and a group of clergymen, undoubtedly causes deep indignation among all of us.

In our statement of June 29, 2025, “With our people and our homeland, for our people and our homeland,” the Board of the Ramgavar Liberal Party resolutely urged that the Mother See categorically cease political ambitions and interference, so that the reckless violation of our inviolable statehood, as well as the disrespect for our national dignity, would not continue.

Karekin II The Catholicos, however, unfortunately, has chosen not to break his strong alliance with other similar fateful people, clearly pursuing outlandish, delusional and problematic political tasks.

Moreover, it is a terrifying phenomenon that the Mother See, with a certain and full of itself arrogance, is pursuing the seizure of power in the homeland.

Theocracy is an unpopular and disgusting form of government, which all conscientious and progressive peoples reject and alienate. It is absolutely unacceptable and intolerable that our church should have political tendencies.

Moreover, it is offensive to the point of insulting intellectualism that the head of the church, who bears the title of "All Armenians", clearly adopts an orientation contrary to the undisputed majority of the Armenian people.

The Ramgavar Azadadan Party undoubtedly considers the Armenian Apostolic Church to be one of the most sacred pillars of our national identity, for whose incorruptible, and unshakable preservation it has always uncompromisingly fought for. It is with that same principled perspective and zeal that the Central Board considers the current inglorious state to be deplorable and dishonorable.

The sacred, extremely significant mission of the Armenian clergy is the spiritual leadership of our people. It would be greatly desirable and beneficial for the clergy of the Armenian Apostolic Church to devote their attention and time entirely to that mission that is dear to their hearts.

However, we regret to state that the materialistic, misguided course and appetites of Karekin II and a group of high-ranking clergy, completely unbecoming of the clergy, endanger the awe-inspiring respect, trust, and even faith of the Armenian people towards our church.

This vile state of affairs not only severely tarnishes and discredits the Armenian Apostolic Church, but may even cause irreparable harm to our sacred homeland and our entire nation.

Therefore, it has become imperative that Karekin II and his “comrades in arms” of the clergy thoroughly weigh and measure their current course, so that we as a nation can avoid extremely undesirable and deplorable situations and all their consequences.

THE RAMԿAVAR LIBERAL PARTY

CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF

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 Յայտարարութիւն

 ԶԳԱՍՏՈՒԹԵԱՆ ՍՐՏԱԳԻՆ ԿՈՉ

        Հայաստանում իշխանութեան եւ մի խումբ եկեղեցականների առճակատումով ծայր առած լարուած ու անհաճոյ ներկայ կացութիւնը, անտարակոյս, խոր վրդովմունք է պատճառում բոլորիս։

         2025 թուականի յունիսի 29-ի «Մեր ժողովրդի եւ մեր հայրենիքի հետ, մեր ժողովրդի եւ մեր հայրենիքի համար» մեր յայտարարութեամբ, Ռամկավար Ազատական Կուսակցութեան Վարչութիւնը վճռաբար  յորդորել էր, որ Մայր Աթոռը կտրականապէս դադարի քաղաքական նկրտումներ ու միջամտութիւններ

ունենալուց, որպէսզի չշարունակուի անոպայ ոտնահարումը պետական մեր անխախտելի հասկացողութեան, ինչպէս նաեւ մեր ազգային արժանապատւութեան անարգումը։

        Գարեգին Բ. Կաթողիկոսը, սակայն, ցաւոք սրտի, նախընտրել է չընդհատել իր ամուր պայմանաւորվածութիւնը համանման այլ բախտախնդիրների հետ,

յայտնօրէն հետապնդելով զարտուղի, մոլար ու փորձանքալին քաղաքական առաջադրանքներ։ Աւելին՝ սահմռկեցուցիչ երեւոյթ է, որ Մայր Աթոռը, որոշակիօրէն ու փառամոլ սնապարծութեամբ, հետամուտ է հայրենի իշխանութեանը տիրանալու։ Կրօնապետութիւնը ապաժողովրդական ու խորշելի վարչաձեւ է, ինչը մերժում եւ օտարում են գիտակից ու առաջադեմ բոլոր ժողովուրդները։ Բացարձակապէս անընդունելի եւ անհանդուրժելի է, որ մեր եկեղեցին ունենայ քաղաքական արեւելումներ։

        Առաւել եւս, իմացականութիւնը վիրաւորելու աստիճան խոտելի է, որ «Ամենայն Հայոց» յորջորջումը կրող եկեղեցապետը յստակօրէն հայ ժողովրդի անառարկելի մեծամասնութեան հակառակ կողմնորոշում որդեգրի։

        Ռամկավար Ազատական կուսակցութիւնը, աներկբայօրէն, մեր ազգային ինքնութեան նուիրականագոյն հենասիւներից մէկն է համարում Հայաստանեայց առաքելական եկեղեցին, որի անեղծ, անապական եւ անսասան պահպանման ի խնդիր մշտապէս անզիջում կերպով պայքարել է։ Այդ իսկ սկզբունքային հայեցակէտով եւ նախանձախնդրութեամբ է, որ Կեդրոնական Վարչութիւնը խոտելի եւ անարգ է համարում ներկայ անփառունակ վիճակը։

        Հայ եկեղեցականների սրբազան, խիստ նշանակալից առաքելութիւնը մեր ժողովրդի հոգեւոր առաջնորդութիւնն է։ Մեծապես բաղձալի եւ շահեկան պիտի լինի, որ Հայաստանեայց առաքելական եկեղեցու հոգեւորականները իրենց ուշն ու ժամանակը ամբողջովին բեւեռեն հոգեհարազատ այդ առաքելութեան վրայ։

Սակայն ցաւով արձանագրում ենք, որ Գարեգին Բ-ի եւ  մի խումբ բարձրաստիճան հոգեւորականների աշխարհիկ, հոգեւորական դասին բոլորովին անհարիր նիւթապաշտ, մոլոր ընթացքն ու ախորժակները վտանգի տակ են դնում մեր եկեղեցու հանդէպ հայ ժողովրդի տածած երկիւղած յարգանքը, վստահութիւնը եւ մինչեւ անգամ՝ հաւատը։

        Այս պղծաբարոյ դրութիւնը ոչ միայն սաստիկ կերպով արատաւորում ու հեղինակազրկում է Հայաստանեայց առաքելական եկեղեցին, այլ նոյնիսկ կարող է անդառնալի վնաս հասցնել թէ՛ մեր սրբազան հայրենիքին, թէ մեր ամբողջ ազգին։

        Հետեւաբար, հրամայականօրէն անհրաժեշտ է դարձել, որ Գարեգին Բ-ն ու իր «մարտընկեր» եկեղեցականները հիմնովին կշռադատեն ու չափաւորեն իրենց ներկայ ընթացքը, որպէսզի ազգովին խուսափենք ծայր աստիճան անցանկալի ու անմխիթար իրադրութիւններից եւ նրանց բոլոր հետեւանքներից։

Ռամկավար Ազատական Կուսակցութեան

Կենտրոնական Վարչութիւն

 

Mukhtar Nshan

 Vaհe H Apelian

Through the years I came to know or know of four mukhtars of the village. All of them hailed from the Apelian family. However, Mukhtar Nshan, known to us as Mukhtar Baboug, was the gentle giant for us youngsters. He will always remain etched in my memory. The three subsequent mukhtars of the village are related to him in one way or another. Baboug and Naner are affectionate Kessabtsi terms for grandpa and grandma.

Mukhtar is an Arabic word and it means chosen. However, it seems the name has acquired official status during the Ottoman Empire as the representative of the village and the host to the visiting dignitaries. Its very name indicates that the mukhtars are elected to their office. However for all I know, the mukhtars of Keurkune have not been elected by balloting but by a participatory consensus. Rev. Garabed Tilkian in his book titled Kessab from 1846 to 1945 indicates that Nshan Apelian had been the Mukhtar of Keurkune since 1932, having taken over the mantle from his deceased brother Garabed, who prominently stands as a member of the post 1909 massacre salvation committee (third from right on third row). 

We, the youngsters, spending our carefree summers in Keurkune, were the heralds of the generation known in the West as baby boomers born on and onward 1946. By the time we started being aware and know those around us, we had already learned that Mukhtar Baboug and his wife Anna Naner had lost their only child,  a son, during the Genocide. After their return, Mukhtar Baboug had embarked on search trips tracking back their caravan route into the interior of Syria looking for the son he had lost. George Apelian narrates Mukhtar Nshan’s poignant search for his lost son Khachig in his “Martyrdom for Life” Armenian book.

Keurkune - Kessab

Few steps separated Mukhtar Nshan’s house from my maternal grandmother’s house, in that cluster of Apelian households in the village up the hill. My maternal grandmother, Karoun Chelebian, was also born into Apelian family and had moved into her parental vacant house after her marriage to Khatcher Chelebian in 1918, in their makeshift camp in Deir Attiyehղ My mother has told me that for years, during the Christmas and Easter celebrations, Anna nanar would tidy their house, make up the bed for her lost son and assume and radiate an air of self-deceptive optimism that her son’s coming home is imminent. By the time I got to know them, both Mukhtar Nshan and his wife Anna seemed to have long given up on the hope of ever seeing their son and only child again and lived quietly. We would always find them together. In their old age they always did things together with a slow motion that inevitably comes with advancing age. 

Mukhtar baboug and Anna naner lived out of their land. During the summer, they would leave their house in Keurkune and move to the village below, Douzaghadj, where they would put a hut. Intertwined Kessab native himka evergreen bush stalks, tree branches and leaves tightly covered the hut. In the hut they had their bedding, cushions and few utensils where they cooked their meals over fire made from dry woods fetched from nearby. I have been in that hut with my uncle Joseph. Our paternal grandfather’s land was on the other side of the brook that halved Douzaghadj. Coziness and warmth emanated in that bare hut that filled the air. Since then I also have had occasions of staying in lush hotel rooms and sat in well-furnished living or guest rooms, but I cannot say that their hut was any less comfortable. It definitely remains the more memorable. Mukhtar Nshan’s nephew Hrant, wife Sara, their son Garbis and their four daughters lived also in Douzaghadj during the summer. The family tended their apple orchard that was adjacent to Mukhtar baboug’s land and kept a caring watch over the aging couple. 

Mukhtar Nshan and his wife Anna, who was also endearingly called Mukhtar nanar, may have had good reasons to be hopeful and optimistic in their old age. They had made a pact with Nshan’s nephew Hrant and his wife Sara. Should they ever have another son and named him after their lost son, they would pass on their land holdings on to him. Indeed Hrant and Sarah became blessed with another son whom they named Khachig. 

Mukhtar baboug passed away not long after. In time Khachig grew up into a fine and handsome young man and got married. In the later part of December 1988, Khachig, an expectant father for his first child, a daughter to be Tamar, took leave of his pregnant wife in her first trimester of pregnancy and joined a hunting party from the village for a very early dawn to dusk boar hunting excursion. During the hunt, in the twilight of the early morning, he was mistakedly fatally shot. The news of this tragic accident arrived to the village along with the news of my brother’s untimely death in America having succumbed to his illness. It was customary whenever a member of that age-old village passed away, wherever that might have been, the bells of the church tolled to break the news. This time around it was Steve, my paternal cousin, who rang the church’s bell and broke the news of the untimely deaths of these two young men in the prime of their lives. They were friends. 

I have not visited the village for decades. However, I know that one day when I do and head to the church, I will face its facade renovated in memory of Khachig Apelian. He is buried ancient cemetery where Mukhtar Nshan and his wife Anna are also buried. His tombstone reads:
 

Աստ Հանգչի Խաչիկ Աբէլեան

(Here rests Khachig Apelian)

Ծն. Քէորքունա. 1958-1988

(Born in Keurkune, 1958-1988)

Կեանքս Էր բուրումնալի

(My life was sweet-smelling)

Վար յոյսերռվ հիանալի

(Full of marvellous hopes)

Անգութ արկածն բեկանեց

(The cruel accident ended)

Գարուն կեանքս խաբանեց

(Put an end to my life in its spring)

Բարեկամներ,

(Friends,)

Գիտցէք արժէքը կեանքին

(Know the value of life)

Ապրեցէք յոյսով, սիրով լի

(Live full of hope and love)

Narek Karapetyan, Robert Amsterdam by Carlson Tucker: What was it for? -2/2

The second part of the Narek Karapetyan and Robert Amsterdm interview by Carlson Tucker on his show, was devoted to Robert Amsterdam. This part was 90 minutes long. After watching Narek Karapetyan’s interview (see part 1/2 of this blog post), I wondered. What was its purpose? After watching Robert Amesterdam interview, not only did I wonder what the purpose was, but I also had to scratch my head to understand the purpose of his interview for Armenia on the popular Carlson Tucker show. I still could not figure out, what the purpose of Robert Amsterdam's  interview on Carlson Tucker show, was. I have attached Robert Amsterdam's interview’s transcript in its entirety below. I have also highlighted the many issues discussed and posted th em too. Interested readers may decipher the purpose of this interview and form their opinion.Vaհe H Apelian

The main points of Robert Amsterdam’s interview:

 

CHRISTIANITY AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT

THE STATE DEPARTMENT’S INSTRUMENTALIZATION OF RELIGION

A JEWISH LAWYER’S DEFENSE OF CHRISTIANS

TORTURE AND THEFT OF CHURCHES IN UKRAINE

CENSORSHIP AND DISINFORMATION

THE FEW VOICES SPEAKING OUT

THE SILENCE OF CHRISTIAN LEADERS AND MEDIA

MEDIA’S BLIND LOYALTY TO ZELENSKY

THE COLLAPSE OF EUROPEAN LEADERSHIP

THE ROOT CAUSES OF POLITICAL DECAY

TRUMP’S FOREIGN POLICY IMPACT

THE TRUTH ABOUT NIGERIA

THE FAILURE OF SANCTIONS POLICY

THE FUTURE OF IRAQ AND AMERICAN PRIORITIES

SELECTIVE OUTRAGE OVER CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION

THE NIGERIA SITUATION

THE PERSECUTION OF SAMVEL KARAPETYAN IN ARMENIA

EXCLUSION FROM RELIGIOUS FREEDOM EVENTS

PERSONAL RISKS AND CONSEQUENCES

THE CRISIS OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY

 

BOB AMSTERDAM ON CHRISTIANITY AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT

TUCKER CARLSON: Bob Amsterdam, as always, one of the people that I talk to most off camera about what is happening to the Christian population of the world. It’s kind of amazing. Thank you for doing this. So the situation in Armenia, the government of Armenia persecuting the church. How is this happening without more international comment?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Look, Tucker, as you and I have discussed, I do not understand the evangelical movement, the Christian movement in the United States. One thing I want to say, and I won’t make many friends by saying it, in the United States, Christianity has been subsumed by the State Department. The US Government decides what Christians we support and what Christians we don’t.

 

So in Armenia, there is going to be a prayer breakfast. And I want you to understand there’s going to be a prayer breakfast while my client, Samvel Karapetyan is in jail. Archbishops have been jailed, clerics have been jailed. The leader of the country is trying to split the church by going to services of a defrocked priest, a man who has said he is going to remove the leader of the church.

 

This man is being feted by American Christians in Yerevan, Armenia. A man who calls clerics prostitutes, a man who uses language that at my advanced age, I’ve never heard a leader use against leaders of the church. And yet, shockingly, this prayer breakfast is going to go on. And I call it a reputation laundering breakfast. The US Government allows this to go on.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: And what connection is there between the U.S. State Department and the prayer breakfast?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Look, I can’t exactly tell you. I’m not privy to the arrangements, but as I’ve seen in representing the Ukrainian church, the prayer breakfast and religious freedom all seem to follow a script outlined by the State Department. And there’s a lot of pressure from the administration on peace in terms of Armenia and Azerbaijan, which of course, all of us welcome.

 

But it’s happened at a tremendous cost to the people of Armenia. There’s tremendous cultural and church relics that are being lost and defiled. There’s 120,000 who have been cleansed from Azerbaijan and no thought has been given to this. We have 23 Christian hostages in Baku, and the prime minister of Armenia did not even speak of them when he was with President Trump. President Trump raised them.

 

I mean, it is shocking how Armenia has a prime minister who seems to resent his own history as an Armenian. They’ve taken Mount Ararat off stamps. They don’t talk about the genocide. They attack the church. The leader of the country wants to remove and appoint the Catholicos.

 

Well, of course, he doesn’t understand what an apostolic Church is. To be an apostolic church, listen to this Jew tell you about apostolic churches. You have to have a connection to the first apostles, which means your election must be sanctified by bishops, by leaders of the church, not a political figure. He is shockingly ignorant of his own religion.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: It sounds like it’s not his religion. I mean, it sounds like he’s not a believer.

 

THE STATE DEPARTMENT’S INSTRUMENTALIZATION OF RELIGION

BOB AMSTERDAM: Well, I never will say that about someone. I agree. I don’t know him. But what I will tell you is our State Department has lost the meaning of faith. They have instrumentalized religion as a tool of foreign policy. Exactly what we accuse the Russians of doing, we have done it. Thank God our people don’t bless tanks the way Bishop Kirill did in Russia.

 

But this support of governments, and we’re seeing it in this prayer breakfast, traveling to a country like Armenia with top leaders of the Christian religion in particular, and doing all of this while we have clerics. And I have a client in jail. I feel very personal about this because I was able to defend this client in an Armenian court.

 

I want to thank the Armenian bar for allowing me to actually speak in defense of the client directly with an interpreter. I was able to deal with the court myself and I thought effectively portray the absolute farce that this trial was and that these charges were with respect to Samvel Karapetyan, who is an absolutely, unbelievably principled Christian who is now sitting in his fifth month in jail innocent of everything other than praising God. And that’s why he’s in jail.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I know I’ve asked you this before, maybe not as pointedly as I will now, but how did this fall to you? How did you, I think, grew up pretty liberal or left wing Jewish guy, wind up being like the world’s, one of the world’s foremost defenders of persecuted Christians. Like, how did that happen?

 

A JEWISH LAWYER’S DEFENSE OF CHRISTIANS

BOB AMSTERDAM: Well, firstly, as a Jew, I am an inclusive person. If somebody has faith in God, almost any God, I respect that. I feel the same way. And I was raised by a family that was deeply impacted by the Holocaust. I have traveled all my life. I have sought refuge during riots or whatnot, whether it be in churches or mosques.

 

I just never feel proprietary and feel that all men of faith have a commonality to it. I’ve been involved with the Orthodox Church since I was a young man. We did a case against the Soviet Union, which a colleague of mine, Reg McLean, did most of the work on. But Dean Peroff and I were young lawyers together and he was a member of the Macedonian Bulgarian Orthodox Church.

 

And I took on that case 45 years ago trying to fight a Soviet attempt at taking control of a church. And since that time, I’ve always had an interest in these issues. And when, as you know, I was approached by the Ukrainian church and now by Karapetyan in the Armenian church context, it just seems very natural as a Jew to defend children of Christ.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: So it’s just an amazing story. Thank you, by the way, for doing it. So what is the latest? You have been the defender of the church in Ukraine, the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which is under almost unbelievable persecution by the government with the help of the United States. Where are we now?

 

TORTURE AND THEFT OF CHURCHES IN UKRAINE

BOB AMSTERDAM: You know, I want to be very clear, Tucker, when you say persecution, that doesn’t sum it up. I’m talking about torture. I’m talking about the theft of churches. I’m talking about…

 

TUCKER CARLSON: This is not just, we’re cutting off funding. No, no, it’s not going to torture you.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: I have pictures, I have videos. There’s a trial going on in England where the Ukrainians are trying to ship back a former member of Parliament of Ukraine whose crime was to speak out for the church. On the day they passed this horrendous bill to ban the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, a bill that I would say has no comparison in Europe since the Nuremberg Laws.

 

When they passed this bill to ban this church, this man had the courage to stand up in the Rada, in their parliament, to denounce it. For that, Zelensky and Yermak pulled his security, knowing that his statements would be highly controversial and perhaps deadly. He realized that there was basically a death warrant. He fled the country on foot through a forest, made it to the UK.

 

Within 14 days of arrival in the UK they were trying to extradite him back to Ukraine because for some hooliganism charge. And, you know, fortunate for him, I knew him. I knew when I had met him in Ukraine, when I had been there, that he had evidence of torture. We’re now taking that evidence of torture to the courts.

 

Ukraine is a one party, one person autocratic state that has no comparison to any democratic values. Rather, today is a mirror of the old Soviet Union. The man in charge of religious affairs is an apparatchik who wrote an anti-Jewish screed 20 years ago. He’s the head of Religious Affairs. And by the way, sorry to laugh.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: This is so crazy.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: By the way, hold on, let me go a step closer. Crazier. He was a keynote speaker at the Religious Freedom Conference held in Washington. What?

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: His name is Yelensky. He was a keynote speaker. This is a man who spends his life trying to destroy the Orthodox Church and transfer it into what is essentially the OCU, a state church. He’s a keynote speaker at a Religious Freedom Conference in Washington where there is a happy hour sponsored by the Ukrainian government, where there are men in Ukrainian army uniforms walking around.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: This happened in Washington D.C.?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Yes, a number of times. And this is all going on while I, on behalf of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, we can’t get an interview in any press in the United States. Censorship exists in this country.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

 

CENSORSHIP AND DISINFORMATION

BOB AMSTERDAM: And when we got any coverage, it wasn’t to cover the outrage in Ukraine, it was to taint me as some form of Russian agent, a guy who was arrested by Putin, whose friends were murdered by Putin. I am tainted as some Russian agent for speaking out against this criminalization of Christianity that’s going on in Ukraine. And by the way, supported by pastors who are very close to the White House and I don’t fault them.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Wait, it’s supported by American pastors?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Yes. They don’t know. I mean, essentially the Ukrainians are masters of disinformation, absolute masters. They have their own sort of captive cells of religious leaders who are told essentially, “Look, we have black PR against you. If you don’t follow what’s going on and you don’t support us, we’ll take you down.”

 

I mean, the former president of Ukraine is under indictment for treason. Novinsky, who you’ve interviewed, under indictment for treason. They’ve done nothing treasonous. They just represent alternative areas of independent thinking. In Novinsky’s case, a religious man who supported the church, but they have sanctioned him, they have tried to destroy him.

 

ALSO READ:  Transcript: Columnist Auron MacIntyre’s Interview on The Tucker Carlson Show

And of course they are within a hair’s breadth of taking down the church, a thousand year old church, destroying it, taking the priests out of it, removing all the churches, transferring it to the state church of the OCU, which essentially is a cutout of the presidential administration. This is, it’s hard to…

 

TUCKER CARLSON: So we first spoke about maybe two years ago. Yes, and I was shocked by what you said at the time, which is the government of Zelensky is trying to eliminate traditional Christianity, the traditional church of Ukraine. And I thought, boy, you know, when people find out about this, because whatever you think of Zelensky or Putin, certainly Putin, you can hate Putin and still be appalled by this.

 

Of course I thought, wow, it’s going to stop like that once people know. But it just kept accelerating and I still haven’t heard a single, I’m sure there have been, but I haven’t heard any American Christian leaders say anything about this. Look, what is that?

 

THE FEW VOICES SPEAKING OUT

BOB AMSTERDAM: I will tell you that J.D. Vance, when he was a senator and no one frankly knew him from Oshkosh, gave a statement in the Senate for which I thank him every day in my prayers that has kept… I think it’s one of the key things. I think you, J.D. Vance, and there are two young members of The Young Republicans.

 

Catherine Whitford, who is a co-chair of the National Young Republicans and is Orthodox, is actually leading a day of action and she has a colleague as well who is leading this. Those young people have been along with our Vice President now the only sources of support we’ve had.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: What about Franklin Graham?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: He is speaking in Yerevan.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: What does that mean?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: He is the keynote at the prayer breakfast in Yerevan, Armenia.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: With the Prime Minister who’s putting clergy in jail.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Yes.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: How does that work?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Listen, I am, it may surprise you to know I am not working in evangelical circles. I have no idea.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not either. But I’m very sympathetic to the, you know, to evangelical people, great people. And I’m not against Franklin Graham, but just shocked that Franklin Graham would…

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: I don’t know, you know, having certainly being aware of him. I have no idea if he knows. I think because our government has decided, as has the EU frankly, that they are going to go with the SOB they know. I think the silence of the government is something that everybody takes as permission. And I’m sure Franklin Graham is not aware that…

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean you would think. And I don’t focus on Franklin Graham. I’m sure he’s a nice person or I really don’t know what he’s like, but I’m not against him. But has he said anything about what Zelensky is doing to the church in Ukraine that you’re aware of?

 

THE SILENCE OF CHRISTIAN LEADERS AND MEDIA

BOB AMSTERDAM: No, no, no. I honestly am in shock at the silence of the media in the United States and the silence of the Christian community to what’s happened. I mean thanks to Candy Stroud who you and I both know, great person. I’ve been on radio everywhere I can.

 

But you know, the Ukrainian effort in Washington and with media is masterful. They have their own people in key media who continue to write puffy articles about them. Never a criticism. The first time it ever came up that I saw was the protests over corruption a few weeks ago which led people here to scratch their head and say, “Well Christ, if Zelensky is so clean, how could he be trying to wipe out the anti-corruption independence?”

 

And that was an eye opener to some. But in the UK we wrote to the government to say why aren’t you doing something about the church? And they wrote back and said everything’s great, everything’s great, everything’s great. I mean the UK government is more hardline about Ukraine than Ukraine. The reaction of Europeans, understand Germany is imploding because of this war.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I know it was obvious that it would four years ago. It was obvious the second it started saying, this is going to destroy Germany, which is really the economy of Europe.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: And let’s say something else. It’s going to radicalize Germany.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that is, that is deep, and that is scary. That is what’s coming, of course.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: And as a Jew, that is a very scary thing to witness.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: But it’s inevitable. It’s going to radicalize all of Europe. I mean, how could it not?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Yeah, and I will say to you that the behavior of the press has been the most disappointing to me because I’ve worked with the press. When I was fighting Putin in the early 2000s on behalf of one of his key opponents, I had the press with me, and we would do interviews. It was constant.

 

But now that St. Zelensky is starting to show a few cracks in the visage, there’s still nothing about this ongoing torture and use of secret police to destroy a church. Nothing.

 

MEDIA’S BLIND LOYALTY TO ZELENSKY

TUCKER CARLSON: What is that exactly? Like, why? Most Americans, including certainly most reporters, most people in the media, had never heard of Zelensky until this war started.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: They know it.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: They couldn’t identify him. And immediately after it started, the loyalty to him blinded them to his faults, induced them to lie to the public in America about what was happening. I mean, they just became shills for Zelensky in, like, one day.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Why?

 

TUCKER CARLSON: What is that?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: What’s interesting, because we did a study, we looked at media in the United States because one of the things that’s frightening about the churches that are being taken in Ukraine is that very often the people who take them and beat up parishioners and break the heads of priests, those people have swastikas on their arms.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I noticed.

 

The Media’s Selective Coverage of Ukraine

BOB AMSTERDAM: So we found out that the New York Times and other papers had been profiling the rise of the right in Ukraine right up until the war. Now the Azov Battalion, which is basically a neo-Nazi battalion, has almost taken over command and control in the Ukraine. And this is an ultra-nationalist government right now that is pushing a very radical line, but no one is covering it.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: But do you have any guesses as to, and I should say you’ve been in and out of that region for over 50 years. You know it well. You know a lot. I mean, I could go on about your background, but I would just ask viewers to look you up or to take my word for it, you know what you’re talking about and what you’re saying is true.

 

But why would the media, again, do that? Why are they defending actual Nazis? Like what? That’s how deep their commitment is to Zelensky. So what is that? What does that commitment, where does it come from?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Well, you know, it’s funny because Zelensky made all his money in Russia.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I know.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: And yet he’s in charge of a government that’s debasing any guarantees of language rights for Russian speakers inside Ukraine. And the sanctification of him relates in my mind to two things. One, we have a total breakdown in elite politics in Europe and to some extent, in the United States.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: And secondly, you know, I stopped playing the market when I was 21, but I certainly remember making a bet and watching it crash and then think, I’ve got to double down to lower my cost in. Exactly. And I think that’s what’s kind of happened here.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I understand the first one. I mean, the second one, I think you’re exactly right. Like, I was all in from the beginning. I can’t get out now.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Yes.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Double down. And I sort of understand what you mean about the degradation of elite politics, but can you put a finer point on that?

 

THE COLLAPSE OF EUROPEAN LEADERSHIP

BOB AMSTERDAM: Well, you know, look at the UK. I mean, I love the UK.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: We have a government that is wildly incompetent. They even know they’re incompetent. We’re going to have a budget that’s going to destroy what’s left of the middle class. Look at France. Complete chaos right now. Complete loss of direction. Italy struggling, struggling. But with Meloni, there’s some sort of strength there.

 

But many of the other countries, of course, Spain. Spain is, now, you may not be aware, I’m fighting Spain in a big way against their tax administration. We just outed in a press conference last week the fact that Spain is using Huawei computers to store tax information for Americans.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Not really.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Yes. And not only are they doing that, but they have this discriminatory policy towards Americans. They have 50,000 Americans. They have hundreds of thousands foreigners. They’re doing discriminatory tax audits and basically stealing the money from foreigners to try to subsidize a government that is the most corrupt government I’ve seen since Papa Duvalier.

 

I think something like 21 indictments. The Prime Minister’s wife, his brother, the General prosecutor. I mean, what’s going on in Spain is unexplored territory in the United States, and people don’t seem to have any interest in it.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: This is a vacation spot.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: And the king is flying to China because Sanchez is all in with China, of course, and Venezuela. So it’s astounding. And the rule of law is under such attack there that the EU is quietly sending a commission to investigate in January because everybody in Europe knows rule of law is dead in Spain. So it’s frightening what’s going on there. And this is what I mean about the sort of calcification of the ruling elite.

 

THE ROOT CAUSES OF POLITICAL DECAY

TUCKER CARLSON: But what is that? Is that just a, now I’m asking you, I’m luring you into philosophy, but I’m very interested and I agree with everything you said. It’s observable, it’s provable, but where does it come from? Is it a natural cycle or is it something else?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: You know, the cost of being a politician are so high, the reputational costs are so high. And the materialistic nature of all of us now, the loss of ideology, the loss of principles, the loss of faith, this leads to a loss in terms of the quality of people entering politics.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s right.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: And you have a chaotic world situation which, you know, there’s a lot of fear, and it leads to a completely transactional foreign policy. And more and more states are engaging in this transactional policies as opposed to following any form of ideological policy.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: So it sounds like a part of a cycle then, just as politics becomes less productive, therefore more reviled by the population. These are supposedly democratic countries, or not really, but they still have the skin suit and people are mad at the political class. So that means that only the worst people join the political class.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Right. And yet fascinating. What I’m seeing in watching the Orthodox community, the Christian Orthodox community and the Jewish community. The Jewish community as a result of this horrible growth of anti-Semitism, the Orthodox community, as a result of the woke nature of many Christian churches, is that those who are fundamental in their faith are growing. Orthodox Christianity is growing at a massive rate. Oh yeah, massive.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m sure Orthodox Judaism is too.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Yeah. Because people are clinging to real values.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s right.

 

TRUMP’S FOREIGN POLICY IMPACT

BOB AMSTERDAM: And in Europe, you know, quite frankly, it’s very, very hard to find inspiration in the United States. We have a president, by the way, I think probably the most effective president in foreign affairs that we may have had since Nixon. I think he’s incredibly consequential in foreign affairs. On domestic policy, on legal issues, I think the rule of law is in trouble, but I won’t go into that.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve noticed.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: No, I agree, but foreign policy wise, he’s moved incredible mountains. And I’m not just talking about the recent activities with the hostages. I’m talking about as a lawyer engaged in Africa, the man has done more to open up our eyes to the opportunities in parts of Africa. He’s made it much less risky to go into Africa.

 

As an American in Africa over the last decades, you don’t know how frustrating it is when the Department of Justice opens up investigations the minute American companies want to venture into Africa or into Latin America. And now that’s not happening. And now American companies are going into some of the Wild West countries in Africa, Latin America, and I say more power to them. Why would we just hand this to China?

 

TUCKER CARLSON: So Congo most obviously.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: But others, yes.

 

THE TRUTH ABOUT NIGERIA

TUCKER CARLSON: Speaking of African countries, all of a sudden, I’m not defending Nigeria. I don’t have strong views in Nigeria, but Nigeria has become famous in the last week as a country in which there’s Christian persecution going on. I think that’s been, there’s been a lot of conflict between Muslims and Christians in Nigeria for, you know, my whole life. But all of a sudden, it’s a kind of centerpiece of the conversation. How did, what is the truth? You’ve been in and out of Nigeria for how long?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: 50 years.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: 50 years. 1975. Is that correct? Yes. It’s a long time. So you know Nigeria pretty well.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: I do.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: What is the truth about what’s going on? Well, I ask because you’ve got credibility, you know the country and you’re spending the rest of your life defending Christians around the world. Tell me what the actual truth of Christian persecution in Nigeria is.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Let’s be very clear that the Nigerian government is populated by Christians and Muslims. I have represented in his earlier life the national security adviser of Nigeria when he was a young man. And he’s a lovely individual and caring and universally respected in terms of religious issues. Devout Muslim, but universally respected.

 

In my adopted family in Lagos, the Odesanya family sort of adopted me when I was a very, very young man and living there. I sort of have a half brother there, Dapo Odesanya. That family is a totally integrated family. Muslim Christian. I was always teased that I was a Jeruba, which is a Jewish Yoruba, but I mean, there have always been tribal conflict.

 

I spoke to the foreign minister before I came here because I wanted to get clarity on the government’s position. Absolutely. Let’s be clear. President Tinubu’s wife is a Christian pastor. This is not targeted at Christians. There are probably an equal or more number of Muslim deaths.

 

I am grateful to President Trump for identifying these attacks on Christians. Believe it or not, you can blame some of this on the French who had this…

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I know nothing about it, but I believe you anyway.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: They had a massive force in the Sahel. They armed the Tuaregs, which are a notoriously aggressive tribal group that has, that arming has led to mass killings of Christians. The fact that when Libya blew apart, a massive amount of arms went down to Boko Haram can’t be denied by anyone.

 

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Nigeria wants to consult with the United States. Nigeria wants assistance in protecting Christians and Muslims, protecting their populations. Nigeria feels it has not had a fair shake from Washington. And I’m not, you know, I don’t work for Nigeria. I’m not going to go on and on. The foreign minister is a close friend who I respect deeply.

 

But I can tell you from my work, I was privileged to represent one of the Nigerian states years ago, Akwa Ibom. We won a case, actually, for them. The Nigerians would welcome American assistance with open arms. So this is unlike Ukraine, which is destroying its church, or Armenia, which is destroying its church. Here you have a government that wants to protect its populace, doesn’t have the resources.

 

Nobody’s going to deny Nigeria’s been racked by corruption all the years I’ve known it. But they want a new deal, a new relationship with Washington, and in part to assist them in protecting Christians. So when I read some of what I’ve been reading, you know, I’m never going to say that Ted Cruz isn’t a brilliant man, but I’m going to say I might have a little more time in Nigeria than he does.

 

And I would welcome him to speak to the foreign minister or others. Because one thing America doesn’t need are more enemies. Africa is the future. I have said it time and time again. I’m privileged to be counsel to the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

 

You know, my firm has spent many years. We’ve just, we’re still trying to defend the opposition leader of Tanzania, who, Tundu Lissu, who’s been illegally jailed. A thousand are dead protesting completely bogus fraudulent elections. And to the credit of the United States, at least in the Senate, they’ve spoken out. Foreign Relations Committee has spoken out.

 

We need our administration and we certainly need the EU to stop funding this grotesque government in Tanzania. But we have to stop looking at Africa as a security concern alone. And we have to recognize that between their minerals and between the entrepreneurial spirit, Nigerian lawyers are as good or better than American lawyers or British lawyers.

 

I mean, there is an incredible infrastructure of intelligence in Nigeria that we don’t know anything about. All we try to do is sanction and condemn. It is a horrible, horrible part of our policy that we sanction the hell out of everybody. We are responsible for the consolidation of power in Moscow under Putin. We were sanctioning the hell out of all these people who had moved to Europe. Who knows whether Putin would still be in power.

 

THE FAILURE OF SANCTIONS POLICY

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly. No, it’s, that’s the truth. I know it’s so counterproductive that it’s got to be part of some sort of larger strategy that I’m too dumb to understand because it’s achieving the opposite of the attendant result.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: And let me tell you, I’m working in Iraq against Iranian interests. We have a woman, Sarah Saleem, who is an American citizen, bravely, incredibly bravely defending her interests and those of the Kurdish in the north. And, you know, the Kurds are going to have an election soon.

 

She’s defending their interests against a wildly corrupt chief justice named Zeidan, who is actually an instrument of Iran. And there have been a complete reversal of her fortunes before the courts because of corruption against a group called the Hanna Brothers.

 

And when we’ve gone to the US Embassy for help, this is an American citizen who, by the way, was kidnapped and tortured 10 years ago and has been fighting for her redemption and for compensation against Al Maliki and Zeidan and others. Our embassy pledges neutrality. Does not help this brave American citizen.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: How can they not help an American?

 

THE FUTURE OF IRAQ AND AMERICAN PRIORITIES

BOB AMSTERDAM: Listen, we cannot understand it, especially in a moment where the future of Iraq, which is massively important to the United States, is at risk. I mean, there’s an election coming up in Iraq as well, and the oil wealth of that country is almost unimaginable.

 

And the issue is whether the Iraqi militia will disarm, whether in fact, the government that we not only have spent billions to support, but we lost almost 5,000 lives. Whether that government will be a government somewhat free of the corruption and control of Iran.

 

And our government’s been impotent. There’s a few people in Congress who have spoken out and blessed them for doing that, but very few people have paid Iraq any thought at all. And yet we over concentrate on Ukraine to the exclusion of almost everything else.

 

SELECTIVE OUTRAGE OVER CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION

TUCKER CARLSON: So Ted Cruz is upset about what’s happening in Nigeria to Christians. I’m not against him being upset about that. You say it’s much more complicated than he’s presenting. Probably more tribal than religious. I don’t know much about it, but how much has Ted Cruz said about the US funded destruction of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Nothing. Nothing at all.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Nothing?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Nothing.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, how can that be?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Listen, Tucker, nobody. I mean, the Washington Post did a hit piece on me. A woman I knew quite well did a terrible hit piece, tried to present me as a Russian agent. That was their focus. There was no issue about what’s happening to the church. None at all.

 

And the funny thing, by the way, is we are not trying to change American policy. Where you and I disagree is I’ve always been totally supportive of Ukraine from a military standpoint because my clients are in the front line. Members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church are fighting and dying for Ukraine.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: And you know, I don’t know if you remember last time I met you, I showed you a video that we had done of some young men in the army speaking out for the church. Well, one of those young men has just died fighting Russia.

 

And his comment in that video was to the President, “How do you want me to fight when my own church, I can’t defend my own church in my town?”

 

And Arseni here is a bishop. One of my lawyers went to the jail in the war zone to meet Bishop Arseni. He has been in jail 17 months. He has no stomach. He is horribly ill. He is a monk. He is a bishop. He has spent his years devoted to a cathedral.

 

What happens is, we think after 17 months they’re going to release this poor man in his 60s, possibly to die. They get him out for a moment and the secret police arrest him again on the trumped up charge that he resisted the Russian invasion. He didn’t resist the Russian invasion. Some completely bogus charge and he is incarcerated again. It’s a level of cruelty and torture I cannot express to you.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: And Cruz has said nothing about it? Really, no one said anything about it, but Cruz specifically. But he’s all of a sudden kind of out of nowhere, deeply concerned about the plight of Christians in Nigeria, which I want to restate, maybe a totally valid concern. I don’t know. But that’s weird.

 

What is that all of a sudden everybody’s concerned about people who clearly have no track record of being interested in Christians at all, including Ted Cruz. What is going on? Where is this coming from?

 

THE NIGERIA SITUATION

BOB AMSTERDAM: Well, in fact, what’s interesting is they’re calling it a genocide and a genocide under international legal terms requires an intent. And certainly it’s a very strange scenario where you have a government richly populated by Christians and accusing them of some form of genocide.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: The president, whose wife’s a Christian pastor. So, but I mean, one thing I do understand is coordinated propaganda. And this is coordinated propaganda. What I mean is it…

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Look, you know, I can tell you that the Nigerians have no idea where this is coming from. They’ve wanted Washington’s attention since the beginning of the Trump administration. There are 230 million Nigerians who long for a strong relationship with the United States, who are being cultivated by Russia, cultivated by China, but want to work with America.

 

And we ignore them until we condemn them for a genocide that is absolutely not a genocide. Yes, I support President Trump’s interest in helping out Christians everywhere. But let’s be fair to a government who is working to try to protect Christians and doesn’t have the resources.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. This is clearly, now, I’ll just say it out loud, it’s an effort to draw the attention of faithful Christians in the United States away from long standing persecution that we have studiously ignored in Ukraine and in other parts of the world. That is, I mean, it’s obvious to me what’s going on. Does that sound crazy?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: No, no, because I don’t have another way to explain it.

 

THE PERSECUTION OF SAMVEL KARAPETYAN IN ARMENIA

And one other thing I want to mention on your show is that we have this new white paper on Armenia called “Pashinyan and the Persecution of Samvel Karapetyan.” And it’s available online at freekarapetyan.com and please download it and you will see, it’s 60 or so pages, but it provides the entire history of the persecution.

 

But you know, as you discovered the Armenian genocide, from there till now, Armenia has been a brave Christian country in a terrible, terrible neighborhood. And you know, having been in their court, having been in the jail, having met with Karapetyan, I am at a complete loss about the fact that I know they think that they’re going to have this prayer breakfast.

 

I believe one of the Trump children is going to Armenia. I’m sure Donald Trump Jr. again has no idea of what’s actually going on there. It’s a terrible situation where because you can’t get into the media to tell them the truth, so many senior people in the United States operate on ignorance and reputation launder people like Pashinyan.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I’ve been an unwitting participant in that phenomenon myself. So I know, like you don’t really know what’s going on. You get used. I’ve been used. I deeply regret it, not going to happen to me again if I can help it. But I’m sympathetic in general to that because, again, I’ve experienced it.

 

But the Ukraine thing is, anyone who wants to know about what’s happening to the church in Ukraine can find out. Like, that’s not a secret. Now, are there prayer breakfasts for Ukraine?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Yes, actually. Yes.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Does anyone ever bring this up?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Our church is not invited to the prayer breakfast. We’re not invited.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: The biggest church in Ukraine is not invited to the prayer breakfast for Ukraine?

 

EXCLUSION FROM RELIGIOUS FREEDOM EVENTS

BOB AMSTERDAM: In Ukraine? No, they’re not invited. As you’re aware, when I fought to get into the Religious Freedom Conference last time, we had to fight to get a table to put information on. Then when I wanted to speak, they loaded a panel with five or six other people and I got about two minutes to speak while the man who is in charge of the destruction of the church was a keynote before a large audience.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Who organized this?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: This is the International Religious Freedom Caucus, I think. And I got a call from Sam Brownback to say, “If you do speak, could you be civil?” And I said, “Well, you don’t know me, Mr. Brownback, but I don’t have any record of incivility. You know, that’s not in my nature. I just want an opportunity to speak out for the people of this church.”

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Sam Brownback, former senator from Kansas?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Yes, he was running this.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: I think he was involved. I have no idea.

 

But I mean, did he speak out against the destruction of the largest church in Ukraine at a religious freedom event?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Nobody did. And let me go further.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: That is so bonkers to me. Like, I can hardly even believe what you’re saying.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Well, wait a second. What’s worse is they brought army folks. People were in Ukrainian army uniforms walking with OCU priests, that state church priests through the halls of this religious freedom breakfast or, I’m sorry, religious freedom convention or conference. And they had a happy hour, a happy hour sponsored by Ukraine that is absolutely crazy.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Are they going to do this for China too?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: A Uyghur happy hour.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, exactly. Celebrating religious freedom in China. It’s all…

 

PERSONAL RISKS AND CONSEQUENCES

Okay, last question, which I do think kind of sums it up. You’ve been in and out of Ukraine a lot. You’ve got, of course, a huge Ukrainian client. Can you go to Ukraine?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: No.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Why?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: I’m under criminal investigation in Ukraine.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: For what?

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: I don’t know. I just know they’ve announced that I’m under investigation. But again, it’s no idea. It’s like with Karapetyan, you know, they try to find something to get you on and they invent stuff, as you know.

 

So it’s really, I’m very tempted to go and I may go again, but I have no idea if I go, if I’ll get out. And to some extent it’s a bit like that with Armenia, because in Armenia they’ve just arrested not only bishops, but now they’ve arrested three mayors who spoke out and who weren’t helpful, as well as the family of the patriarch, the catholicos, the brother and some other relative on again, completely trumped up charges.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: It feels like we’re moving very quickly to just kind of global repression. It seems like liberal democracy has been so discredited, no one’s defending it and it’s dying before our eyes. That’s kind of the overview from everything you’ve said.

 

THE CRISIS OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY

BOB AMSTERDAM: Look, the EU has lost its way. There’s no question. I think the EU is a tremendous danger if it doesn’t get its act together on fundamental values. You know, there’s this dialectic going on. Everybody is afraid of Russia. Completely afraid. Paralyzed.

 

I mean, a Russian drone crosses the border and we’re at DEFCON 1. Yet after, I don’t know, four plus years, Kiev isn’t taken. None. You know, I think there’s been a 1% change in territory.

 

So how can Europe be so completely in fear of Russia and yet at the same time instrumentalize that fear to destroy their economies, to maintain sanctions, to engage in wildly self destructive behavior and fail to maintain democratic values?

 

You saw them throw out a candidate in Romania. You saw what they’re trying to do in Germany. You see what’s happened in France. It is a continuous obliteration of rule of law. And we have got to start getting back to first principles with respect to rule of law everywhere or we will lose it completely everywhere.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Bob Amsterdam. I swear I check the news regularly waiting for an account of your arrest. I hope it never comes. But you are taking actual physical risks on behalf of people who don’t have power. So I’m grateful to you for that.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Well, thank you for having me.

 

TUCKER CARLSON: Stay free.

 

BOB AMSTERDAM: Thank you.