V.H. Apelian's Blog

V.H. Apelian's Blog

Monday, July 1, 2024

Memorable July dates - 2/4 - July 1, 1846

Vahe H Apelian


 This is the second installment of my “My memorable July dates” blog.  The dates I have in mind are July 1, 1846, July 2, 1972, July 4, 1776, and July 9, 1976. 

Today, July 1, 2024, the Armenian Evangelical community celebrates the 178th anniversary of its founding. It was founded on July 1, 1846. Missionary Rev. William Goodell was sent on behalf of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Mission. The largest and most effective missionary organization arguably in the history the U.S. He played a decisive role in the founding of the Armenian Evangelical community. 

I have attached quotes from his memoirs as to what his mission was and what he witnessed as the first account of the founding of the  Armenian Evangelical community.

Rev. William Goodell’s Mission:

 “When Mr. Goodell went to Constantinople, his mission was in the Armenians, who were descendants of the ancient inhabitants of Armenia. The nation embraced Christianity about the commencement of the fourth century; but, like all the Oriental churches, the Armenian had become exceedingly corrupt. It was almost wholly given up to superstitions and to idolatrous worship of saints, including Virgin Mary, pictures etc.  The Armenians hold to ……..and worship, the host: and worship  the host: and, indeed, hve adopted most of the errors of popery. Nearly half the days of the year are feast -days. Their feast-days are regarded more sacred than the Lord’s Day……” (p. 127)

The Frist Armenian Evangelical Church.

“The evangelical Armenians had, for a long time, met together for mutual counsel and comfort, but they had not separate ecclesiastical organization. Driven therefore, to the last extremity by persecution, they resolved to unite as a branch of the new catholic church of Christ; and with the advice of the missionaries, who prepared for them a platform or conditions, on the 1st July,1846, they entered in solemn covenant as the First Evangelical Church of Constantinople.  Of this event Mr. Goodell wrote: -

“This done! On the 1st inst.-an evangelical church was organized upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner-stone. It was a most interesting occasion. The meeting continued four hours and a half, and was one of great solemnity. Forty persons of whom three were women, voluntarily entered into covenant with God and with each other; and we, in the name of all the evangelical churches in Christendom, rose and formally recognized and acknowledged them as a true church of Christ. Then they chose by ballot a pastor and two deacons, together with three others, who are to hold office for the term of one year, and who with the pastor and deacons, form a standing committee or church session, for the examination of candidates, the bringing forward of cases of discipline, etc. To this church some thirty of forty more will probably be added by profession just as soon as time shall be found to examine and propound them.

I did not expect to live to see this day, but I have seen it and glad. ‘This is the day which the Lord hath made, and we will rejoice and be glad in it’.  When I removed to Constantinople fifteen years ago, I felt assured either that the day would come, or the Armenian Church as a body would be reformed; and I never had any anxiety as to the result. I always felt that we were engaged in a great and good work, so great and so good that I would without any impatience have labored on in the same was fifteen years longer, had it so please the great Head of the church.”  (p. 317)

The First Ordination

“The pastor-elect of the new church, Mr. Apisosoghom Khachadurian, an Armenian, was ordained on July 7, 1846, all the American missionaries and the Rev. Mr. Allan of the Free Church of Scotland, taking part in the services. Of this occasion Mr. Goodell wrote: - 

‘Although the ordination was kept secret on account of our strained accommodations, yet as many as one hundred and eighty or two hundred must have been present, filling every seat and every passage, and standing around the doors. Perfect stillness reigned during the whole, and the attention was profound and solemn. The hearts of the brethren seemed stirred up from their innermost depths. One said the whole place seemed full of angels of light; another, that his very flesh trembled for fear of the Lord and for the glory of His majesty, so sensible did he feel the divine presence.’

The evangelical Armenians who united in their organization adopted a paper containing the reasons which induced them to take this step. It was signed by the pastor, deacons, and committee of the church, and was address, “To the much respected and honored members of the American Board” and is as follows: - (p. 318).

The First Marriage

“The first marriage, according to the simple rites of the Protestant Armenian Church, was celebrated on the 4th of November 1947.  Hitherto all marriage ceremonies had been performed by the clergy of the old church; but now that the Protestants had a separate organization, they had no occasion to go back to the old ecclesiastics, nor could they obtain from them any official services. They were excommunicate. The bride, in the marriage alluded to, was a pupil of the Female Seminary of whom Mr. Goodell gives the following sketch: - ” ( p. 327)

Missionary Rev. William Goodell’s farewell address:

“When we first came among you, you were not a distinct people, nor did we expected you ever would be; for we had not sectarian object in view, it being no part of our plan to meddle with ecclesiastical affairs. Our sole desire was to preach Christ and Him crucified. Our object was precisely the same as that of the missionaries to that ancient church in Persia. The labors of those missionaries have produced no separation in that church; but they have been permitted to labor side by side with the bishops and priests, to preach in their houses of worship, to assist in supporting and superintending their schools, and to do much in every way to enlighten and elevate the whole community.” (p.441)

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As to July 4, 1776, America declared its independence. The phrase is mostly known. But what is revolutionary is the concept of the unalienable right to pursue happiness. That surely was and still is revolutionary. (Link: http://vhapelian.blogspot.com/2024/07/memorable-july-dates-3-july-4-1776.html)



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As to July 2, 1972 and July 9, 1976, they are personal. If interested I invite you to read the attached blog linked below. Not on July 2, 1972 but on July 9, 1976 I made my  was most westerly journey. Read link: Not on July 2, 1972 but on July 9, 1976 http://vhapelian.blogspot.com/2024/07/not-on-july-2-1972-but-on-july-9-1976.html




 

Sunday, June 30, 2024

Memorable July dates -1/4 - July -1: 1, 2, 4, and 9

Vahe H Apelian

 

July 1, 1846

July 2, 1972

July 4, 1776

July 9, 1976

 


On July 1, 1846 the Armenian Evangelical Church was established in Constantinople. Read Link http://vhapelian.blogspot.com/2024/07/memorable-july-dates-1-2-4-and-9.html



                                                                        ***

On July 4, 1776, America declared its independence. The phrase is mostly known. But what is revolutionary is the concept of the unalienable right to pursue happiness. That surely was and still is revolutionary. Read link: http://vhapelian.blogspot.com/2024/07/memorable-july-dates-3-july-4-1776.html



***

As to July 2, 1972 and July 9, 1976, they are personal. If interested I invite you to read the attached blog linked below. Not on July 2, 1972 but on July 9, 1976 I made my  most westerly journey. Read link: Not on July 2, 1972 but on July 9, 1976: http://vhapelian.blogspot.com/2024/07/memorable-july-dates-44-july-9-1976.html




Saturday, June 29, 2024

Memorial Day: Camp Lutherlyn, Camp Haiastan, and “Pumpkin Suni”

 A short while ago I read about renovations at Camp Haiastan and an acknowledgment to our son Daniel and daughter-inl-law Nicole's donation towards renovating the clinic. I was reminded of the attached article I had written to the Weekly, years back (2000/2001).

Remembering David on Memorial Day
Vahe H. Apelian

Reproduced from Armenian Weekly (2000).

Courtesy ArmenianWeely, June 27, 2024

BUTTLER, PA:  Driving our children to the annual AYF Junior Seminar in Camp Lutherlyn became an annual ritual in our family since we moved to Cincinnati in 1995. Camp Lutherlyn is located in Prospect, Pennsylvania, 325 miles or so from us. There is no AYF chapter in Cincinnati, which is why we took upon ourselves to drive our sons to the camp.
This was the last time that David, our youngest son would attend the seminar as a junior participant. He was placed in the grown-ups cabin, a situation that made us realize that a phase in our lives has now come to its end.  Butler, the town next to Prospect, had become our Memorial Day weekend gateway. My wife and I rummaged the local antique shops and the flea markets or fairs and enjoyed Pennsylvania outdoors as our children attended the seminar these past six years. 
Most parents have not visited Camp Lutherlyn and for good reason. The AYF chapters bus the children there, covering a distance which is not meant for the faint-hearted or for those who have not set their minds for making the long journey a memorable experience. Ours was no different. During the past years, we accumulated our share of experiences of missed exits, wrong routes, memorable lunch stops and familiar landmarks.
But none of these will ever come close to the way I related to the camp and to our son's experience there. It was on our way there, on the highlands of Pennsylvania, some five seminars back. It was to be David’s second attendance. I asked him if he remembers anything from the educational from the previous seminar. He said he remembered well what “Pumpkin” Suni and his friends did for the Armenian cause. David’s slip of toque was agonizingly evident and yet conspicuously innocent and it took me to my youthful days. Born in America and now growing up in the Mid-West, tonque twists of Armenian names or wrong connotation, is the least I would have been concerned.  I was sure that in time, he would learn the correct pronunciation of the name that had fired the imagination of countless children and youth, including mine.
My father enrolled me in the Papken Suni Badanegan (Youth) Mioutyun (Association) when I was David’s age. We held our meeting on Saturday afternoons in the old building of the Beirut Gomideh. At least once a year we held the same debate over whether Papken Suni and his friends served the Armenian cause by their deed, or whether it was a reckless act. We knew the outcome of the debate and few us ever volunteered to be in the team that negated the act. But at times we did since someone had to.
And now Papken Suni’s name had acquired a new twist with my American born son who was growing up trick or treating the neighbors on Halloween day with their overgrown pumpkins. But the spirit of the act had now caught his imagination too. The passage of the legacy of sorts had indeed taken place. 
For three days, during the long Memorial Day Weekend, Camp Lutherlyn becomes the microcosm of the best the Armenian community offers to its children. Arriving from different states of the East Coast, the kids get together to renew their friendship and relate to the past year’s camp experiences as if it had happened only yesterday. Soon they realize what was meant to be only yesterday is in fact 365 days old now. Nature has taken its course and they are now a year older. For all those parents who are not there to see, we bear witness of the joy of their children seeing each other and for being together for one more time and the all too evident sadness at the departure time after three memorable days. And yes, sadly, we will miss that too. Come next year we will not be there anymore.
For the past six years, we witnessed the dedicated work of the AYFers who organize the annual Junior Seminar. It’s a huge undertaking and is well organized by the AYF Seniors or Alumni who are now shouldering their own personal responsibilities. These dedicated young men and women devoted countless hours to make the Junior Seminar a memorable event for the few hundred kids who attend.
David is an AYF member-at-large and attends the seminar independently. However, right upon our arrival, he fits with the crowd. By now we know what to do. After we pull our car on the campground and see David saluting and hugging his fellow campers of past years, we head towards the main station and give David’s name. The attendant pulls a file bearing his name. In that file, we find the program, the layout of the camp, his assigned cabin and the names of the kids who will be with him in the cabin. A similar file is prepared for each and every camper.
Each cabin is given the name of a memorable ARFer. This year David’s cabin was called Mikaelian. The next cabin was named after Palabegh Garabed, the next one over, the inevitable Papken Suni. Along with the names, a brief biography of the person with a picture is also posted on the door of the cabin. On this Memorial Days weekend, past ARFers who also sacrificed, at times with their lives, are also remembered.  Each cabin has one or two councilors. Along with the educational, the dances, the three evenings in the cabins, the long drive to and from the camp, constitute the bulk of the experience for that year.
In August David will attend Camp Haiastan for the last time as a camper. Daniel, our elder son, is now a former camper, counselor, and lifeguard at Camp Haisastan. David may follow in his footsteps and may opt to become a councilor too in the future. However, their time as an impressionable youth has now come to pass.
On behalf of our family, I would like to thank all those who organized these seminars and the experiences both at Camp Lutherlyn and at Camp Haiastan. Unknowingly maybe, they opened a window for our children in ways that we, as parents, would not have been able to do by ourselves. And for all those who made these experiences possible and memorable for our sons, we remain ever grateful.


Thursday, June 27, 2024

Reverberations of a teacher

Vahe H Apelian

 

Mrs Zvart Apelian with students

Last week or so, I received two Facebook messages and the following comments were brought to my attention.  They had to do about their one-time teacher Mrs. Apelian, my mother Zvart Apelian, who was better known by her students as Mrs. Apelian (Digin Apelian in Armenian). One of them was her namesake, Zvart. The pictures are from her teaching days at Shamlian-Tatigian Armenian Evangelical Schools.


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Zvart: R u the son of Digin Zvart Apelian? All Shamlian Tatigian students adored her.

 

Me: Yes, how do you know of her? It's wonderful to hear that she was liked so much by her students. But let me tell you something. When it came to education and educating young Armenian students, she could not put the distinction whether they were her sons or her students and interestingly she was not aware of it.

 

Zvart: I lost my father when I was 10 years old. It was new when I went back to school. In her class she was teaching, and I was crying nonstop. She noticed me, stopped her teaching, called me to stand next to her and to tell her and to the class why I was crying. I still remember that minutes, when I was telling my story հեկեկալով (Sobbing). Your mom was full of compassion. She had a heart of gold. It is so interesting that I came across to write to her son. From my childhood, at that time I was 4th grade. I only remember that incident, because she lavished on me love , love and only love:

 

Zvart: We only knew about her that she had 2 sons, nd a husband. Then I heard that she has lost her husband. Then I heard that she lost one of her sons.

 

Me: yes, she lost her son before her husband. …..Zvart, you made her day. 



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Hrip: I was very delighted to have found your post and will make sure to follow your blog … 

I spoke to my daughter about my favorite teacher your mom, she left a great impact on me indeed …

Be well 🙏

 

Me: Thank you


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Hilda: Good old days when we were young and worry free. How we loved you then dear Mrs. Apelian and we still love you. Your teaching discipline and caring towards your students whom you treated like your children were extraordinary. God bless you my dear teacher.





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Silva:  Our ideal teacher, Digin Apelian.


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My mother's last picture at the Ararat Nursing Facility, in LA
Courtesy  Michael Apelian


Wednesday, June 26, 2024

A perplexing post

 

Vahe H Apelian

I have not had the opportunity to meet Dikran Abrahamian M.D., the founder of Keghart.com journal in person, but I have talked to him on numerous occasions. In fact, we planned to meet but it never happened. For a few years I regularly contributed to Keghart.com but ceased to present articles for their consideration now that I have my own blog.

I found Dikran’s last article titled “Turbejian Twins Threaten While Armenia Dithers” disturbing. Let me say that whenever I hear Turkbeijan, I am reminded of another principal of Keghart.com, Jirair Tutunjian. I can state with confidence that it was Jirair who coined that fitting term Turkbeijan. 

Even before starting to read the text of Dikran’s article, the reader encounters a quote from Ilham Aliyev posted in bold letters on top of the body of the text of the article. After having the attention of the readers drawn to Ilham Aliyev’s quote, Dikran makes a number of bold statements that the reader obviously is meant to entertain in the context of what Ilham Aliyev has said. See below.

Yes, on January 19, 2024, Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan announced that Armenia needs a new constitution: "We want to have a constitution that makes the Republic of Armenia more viable in the new geopolitical and regional conditions," said the prime minister. The PM’s call for new constitution understandably aims to annul or rather amend the Declaration of Independence of Armenia as ratified on August 23, 1990 and have any statement in regard to the unification with Artsakh or any territorial claim from its neighbors, removed and made clear that Armenia does not have territorial claims from its neighbors.

Of course, this has come about from Azerbaijan and Turkey. But I do not entertain their pressure as I raise the following fundamental issue. Does Armenia have any territorial claim from its neighbors? If not, why does Armenia retain the reunification with Nakorno Karabagh on the preamble of the Declaration of Independence? After all, the Declaration of Independence charts the course of the Armenian state.

Let us face it. Our historical knowledge about free, independent, democratic sovereign state is from May 28, 1918 to November 29, 2020, a mere 2.51 years. Our, I mean those of us who were of age when Armenian regained its independence on September 21, 1991, that spans to this day, and is 32.75 years. I challenge Dikran - other than the school textbook issue of which I have read nothing as to how it was and how it is changed - if Armenia’s claim of historical Armenia  and for reparation, restitution of genocide has been any different during those sum total of 2.51+32.75 = 35. 26 years. I challenge him to cite an Armenian leader such as Aram Manougian, Avedis Aharonian, or Levon Ter Petrosay, Robert Kocharyan, Serzh Sargsyan  whose stand has been any different than at the present under Nikol Pashinyan. 

All these Armenian denizens prudently have not laid territorial claim, nor claims for restitution from Turkey for the Genocide. Well, I have to make an exception to the short lived tenure of Armenia’s first FM Raffi Hovannisian. As to Nagorno Karabagh Oblast, other than Nikol Pashinyan’s 'Artsakh is Armenia' uncalled for utterance, the presidents did not recognize Artsakh as a state nor annexed it to Armenia.  

Keghart.com has been on the forefront, well ahead of the rest of the Diaspora Armenian press as an open forum.  A hearty discussion and sharp exchanges ensued on its pages at the March 1 killing when the rest of the Armenian journals were almost silent. It was also Keghart.com that led the drive to alert the authorities in Armenia not to mistreat a young journalist they have imprisoned, Nikol Pashinyan. The rest of the Diaspora press was silent. That is how I came to learn the name.

One more thing. I do not Dikran expected to hear Ilham Aliyev say that the border demarcation and delimitation is proceeding according to the boarders agreed at Alma-Ata. Armenia and Azerbaijan are demarcating and delimitating accordingly. I doubt that Dikran is naïve enough to expect to hear such an announcement from Aliev.

In fact, there would have been much concern, instead of what Aliyev said on May 10, he would have said that Armenia is getting the upper hand at the negotiations at Azerbaijan's expense. 

I am sure Aliyev  is toying with Armenia and the Armenians. His only concerns are to placate his constituents. The legitimacy of his regime is based on his hegemony over Armenia and Armenians. His statements are not sources to be quoted in Armenian press as a source of information.

I am left with the impression that Dikran Abrahamian seems to have joined the ranks of Harout Sassounian. Say Nikol Pashinyan, rekindle the opposition against him and against anything he utters or advocates, period, no discussions.

 

Tuesday, June 25, 2024

Arshakunis: The statue of its founding king Drtad I in Louvre

Drtad I - Tiridates I – was the founder of the Arshakuni (Arsacid) dynasty. He was crowned king of Armenia by the Roman emperor Nero in 66. His statue  was found in Rome and move to Louvre. 

The  Arshakuni Armenian dynastic kingdom impacted in the shaping of the Armenian nation, like no other. The members of the Arshakuni dynastic family:

Transitioned the Armenian nation from worshipping the old gods to embracing Christianity.

It has a legendary king, Arshak II, after whom a legend has come down and an opera is named. 

Its young Arshakuni King Bab, shaped the newly established church and state relation which is reverberated to this very day and was the subject of Stepan Zorian's 1989 namesake novel.

Under the auspices of its last Arshakuni king Vramshabouh,  a young monk by the name of Mesrob Mashdots invented the Armenian alphabet, with Catholicos St. Sahak Bartev, who was a descendent of Gregory the Illuminator with whom Arshakuni king Drtad III founded the Armenian church. 

But their kingdom was marked by: “an uncommon instability and indetermination, affecting both political and social life in Armenia. Continuous plots, intrigues, murders between antagonists (local and foreign), and the struggle about the newly adopted Christian faith marked tragically the situation throughout the main homeland.”

The marble statue of the dynasty’s founding king Drtad I was found in Rome and move to Louvre. This is its story. The source is listed below.

 Vahe H Apelian

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"This marble statue of king Tiridates I, the Parthian king of Armenia, was discovered in the Villa Borghese at Rome before being transferred (in fragmentary form) to the Louvre, where it was restored (including replacing the right arm, which is a reconstruction) sometime prior to 1832 (de Clarac and Maury 1832-34, plate 336 [link] and 1850, 224, no. 2400 [link]). This is one of several statues commissioned to celebrate Nero’s crowning of this client king at Rome about 66 CE. The photo, the painting by Panos Terlemezian (who passed away in 1941), and the drawing by de Clarac picture the statue from roughly the same vantage point but may accentuate different details.

 

Standing at about two metres tall, Tiridates is pictured wearing traditional Parthian clothing among nobles, including a belted tunic, a long mantle, pants, and sheathed sword. The head-gear is reminiscent of an Attic-style helmet but may also be based on Parthian head-gear. The disposition of king Tiridates in this statue is notably passive, despite the presence of a weapon. This juxtaposition may be intentional. Although the suppression of Boudicca’s revolt in the new province of Britannia had occurred under Nero’s watch around 60 CE, the closest Nero came to achieving a new conquest was this reaffirmation of the client kingdom status for Armenia. Nero only achieved this through his Syrian governor, Cn. Domitius Corbulo (died 67 CE), who had won a series of military victories against the Parthians and Armenians between 58-63 CE (see Cassius Dio, Roman History 62-63). Cassius Dio’s narrative suggests that a diplomatic peace agreement was reached in 63 CE, which stipulated among its conditions that Nero had the right to crown the king of Armenia at Rome.

Our sources suggest that Nero was framing this diplomatic win as a military victory in light of an absence of perceived accomplishments. Suetonius (writing about 121 CE) pictures Tiridates, as defeated suppliant, falling at Nero’s feet before being lifted up by his right hand and kissed, suggesting restoration of relations with Tiridates clearly in a submissive role (Suetonius, Nero 13). Nero removes Tiridates’ hair-band or turban and replaces it with the diadem of a client king. On this compare Roman coins depicting defeated peoples kneeling as suppliants (link). Dio alludes to this victory-focussed interpretation in his more elaborate and much later (ca. 233 CE) coverage of the entire affair, including descriptions of Tiridates’ nine month journey to Italy, the spectacle events staged upon Tiridates’ arrival at port city of Puteoli, and finally the crowning in the Roman Forum where Nero is pictured dressed in triumphal gear and leading a victory procession. The negative press that Nero faced after his death and the condemnation of his memory make it hard to evaluate the nuances of Nero’s principate. Yet the pattern of this imperial propaganda and spectacle around Tiridates aligns with other similar situations involving subject peoples."

 

Source:

https://www.philipharland.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Tiridates-drawing-by-De-Clarac-from-fig-336.jpg

 

 

Monday, June 24, 2024

Trump will get the final word during closing statements

Vahe H Apelian

 

President Biden and former president Trump will hold their presidential debate this week.  I read that this debate will see major shifts from prior telecasts. Biden and Trump have both agreed to the rules, which include: no live audience, muted microphones when it’s not their turn to speak, no prewritten notes are allowed, they will stand behind their lecterns the entire time, limiting their mobility — with Biden on the right and Trump on the left. There will be no opening statements from either candidate AND Trump will get the final word during closing statements, as determined recently by a coin flip.

The fact that Trump got to have the final word by the flip of a coin is an ominous sign for me and for those who will not vote for him but will vote for Biden because where I come from, Lebanon, the final appearance is reserved for the more popular singer. But there is something Biden could do, much like Levon Katerjian did when he shared the stage with another icon of the Armenian music in their days.  But I doubt that Biden will do it.

I quote the incident as Boghos Shahmelikian wrote in the book I translated and my cousin Jack Chelebian edited - "The Dawn of Armenian Pop Music".

“"Shortly after Adiss Harmandarian’s phenomenal rise, Levon Katerjian produced a number of records that also became very popular but with older audiences. Levon Katerjian formerly sang as soloist in choirs. If remnants of Turkish music had remained in the community, Levon Katerjian helped to eradicate them. The ensuing onslaught of Armenian songs by Adiss and Levon completely changed the landscape of Armenian pop music and ushered it away from its Ottoman influences. 

Adiss interpreted mostly estradayin (pop) songs  instead of ashoughayin (folk) songs. Levon, on the other hand, interpreted more of the latter than the former. In spite of their different and distinct singing styles, the emergence of these two talented popular singers around the same time gave way to an Adiss and Levon competition. 

The beneficiary of their artistic competition became the Armenian pop music and the public, although at times it became amusing. Both brought their services to the community by singing at community fund raising events free of charge. Among such fundraising events I note the one that the Sardarabad Gomideh of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) had organized in Bourj Hammoud, in the Kermanig Hall  that can accommodate up to 2000 persons. 

The hall was filled to capacity to hear the two prominent singers. The concert was held mid-week at 9 p.m. It was scheduled to end by 11 p.m. Each singer was to perform for one hour. After much debate Levon relented and agreed to appear on stage first. It was commonly understood that a concert ended with the more popular musician performing last. The implied message of the order of their appearances was obvious, if not to the audience, but to the performing artists.  

Levon, instead of ending his songs in one hour, continued to sing past the 11th hour time slot, well into past midnight. By the time Adiss came on stage most of the audience had already left the hall to get to sleep for their next day’s routine. Adiss thus ended up singing a few songs to an almost empty hall!”

I doubt that Biden will entertain such a move. 

I also am not sure if Trump will abide by the rule of standing behind his lectern the entire time, and not move around. 

We shall find out on Thursday evening when the debate will be televised.